I have spent a great deal of time surfing cult info websites filled with many sociologist psychologists & very intelligent people. But they all disagree & do not have a clear definition of cult. I always find Geshe Kelsangs teachings are clear where other people are confused. So I did some thinking and came up with the following definition to be tested to see if it fits all cults. Once we have a definition its easy to establish who is & who isnt.

My definition of cult is an organisation using psychological techniques that upon realising it is harming its members decides to continue harming them because harming them is bringing leading members wealth, fame, worldly pleasure and popularity.

In a nutshell it is intentional harm for worldly purposes. The definition also has to be applicable to management training gurus, boot camps gurus, & psychotherapy gurus.

What do people think?

What is the comparision between historically times when religions spread rapidly & the definition of cult

What is the comparison between Buddhist monasteries in ancient times & pre 1950 in Tibet & the definition of cult

What is the comparison between ancient teacher disciple relations & the definition of mind control/cult leader & adherent (Eg Milarepa & Marpa)

For example, many stories of Buddhists of old have people in them who died for their religion, gave all their wealth away, obeyed their guru as he asked them to do things that harmed their bodies. The great monasteries we hear of were communities of people who were heavily controlled & their freedoms suppressed. If they ’strayed’ they were booted out. The religion says to regard someone who appears as a human to be an infalliable source of information who is always right (a Buddha). So is the entire philosophy of Buddhism going to be deemd a cult? If these are the characteristics of a cult them a mainstream religion has been a cult for 1000s of years…..
As a child I saw David caradine endure all the gruelling hardships inflicted by his Buddhist master as well as movies of Shaolin monks & I was impressed. I wanted that life. Is the Shaolin monastery of old fitting the definition of controlling & suppressing freedom. Was it a cult? It was a small community indeed. I think it is as important to publish a book on this topic. I cannot put my finger on it but there is something very important in this topic that will determine if we practice religion in our future lives or develop a dislike for it or wrong understanding of how religion works. We need to sort out our karma.

FIRM provides education for the general public on all the varieties of prejudice, both overt and subtle, that are currently being practiced openly against many religious minorities. A comparison is made with other forms of discrimination (toward women, blacks, homosexuals, the handicapped, etc.) to which our society has become more sensitive.

religious tolerance: we still have a long way to go

discrimination against minority religions via the “cult” myth

media sensationalism and apostasy: a destructive synergy

anti-cult movements: systematic religious persecution

the taboo against religious traditions that make strong requirements of members

the taboo against gnostic religious traditions and Spiritual Masters

how to find the truth about a religious movement

FIRM chronicles the history of persecution throughout the ages of religious minorities and their founders (including persecution of Christianity in its infancy, leading to the deaths of Jesus and many of his disciples), and it examines the origins of (and the motivations behind) such persecution.

FIRM observes that five stages tend to occur in the fight against intolerance or prejudice of any kind in our time:

1. Atrocities or injustices are committed on the basis of discrimination of one kind or another.

2. A social movement coalesces to counter that particular form of discrimination.

3. The movement is accepted socially; “consciousness” is “raised”; laws begin to change, in the direction of guaranteeing equal opportunity, rights, and privileges.

4. Now hyper-sensitive to its own discrimination, the society swings to the opposite extreme, in the form of a “political correctness” movement, whose purpose is to eliminate all speech (and action) that might possibly offend, because it could be interpreted as (either overtly or covertly) discriminatory.

5. The society swings toward a more natural balance, affording both equal opportunity and an open and ongoing forum for the exploration, understanding, and appreciation of real and usefully acknowledged differences among sexes, races, sexual persuasions, religions, etc. (none of which should ever be translated into differences in human, rights, social opportunities, etc.).

This sequence has been illustrated in the civil rights and womens rights movements, which are both in process between stages 4 and 5. Unfortunately, the fight against intolerance of religious minorities is still largely in stage 1. The various freedoms guaranteed to religion by the U.S. Constitution, and by the constitutions of other governments and international bodies like he United Nations, still largely benefit majority religions exclusively. In other words: we have a long way to go!

Just because a teaching is powerful & you feel compelled to follow the teacher of your own free will doesnt mean its a cult. Many people had powerful feelings of religious devotion in history & they were admired not told they were behaving in an unhealthy way.

Modern society is so critical of everyone. Teachers cant show anything magical as it makes a big problem. The whole NKt issue is that 1000 years ago if Geshela did this everyone would rejoice but now there can be no lamas making a revival of old teachings.its a sin basically.no lama can reestablish the teachings if things degenerate. They are outcast if they try to do anything good.why? because theyre not towing the line. The main group of lamas take offence that they have no say in the matter or are not in charge. They feel insulted that someone dares to make any decisions. Its all about ego & heirarchy thats my conclusion. These lamas may give beautiful talks as they know the instructions but if they dont respect & let someone try to do something good then its an ego thing. 1000s of years ago people would have tears of joy seeing what was happening, now its all feeling slighted people feeling their heirarchical position is being ignored & then smear campaigns to try to destroy all the good potential & replace it with a bad image of buddhism as a religion of bickering & egos.

The NKT is not a cult, its much gentler than the non westernised version where you have to do 100 page sadhanas daily or be scowled at & told you will roast in hell for aeons. The NKt is run by imperfect people & the spiritual experiences they are getting are quite powerful BECAUSE it is a very pure teaching & intention of Geshe Kelsang. So of course these powerful energies can be channeled the wrong way at times.but what is the alternative? To prevent people developing these powerful expereiences? close the door to any potential powerful realisation make it all dead & intellectual so noone gets emotional & fanatical?

How do you think people were when they met someone very pure trying to do something good in the past? like jesus john the baptist moses mohammed…I promise you they were surrounded by fanatical people of course things went wrong because of all the powerful emotions & energies it wasnt perfect but the teacher did his best to correct when people went the wrong direction.

Nothing is good enough for us nowadays. We have more luxurious bathwater than cleopatra, we eat more luxurious dishes than the emperors of the entire roman empire did. yet we pick at our food & complain that movies that cost millions of pounds & that people risked their lives to make are rubbish. I suppose all the critiques will believe geshela should have taught us all to chant tibetan & consult the dalai lama before doing anything for permission. If milarepa was told he had to consult another lama before he had permission to speak what do you think he would have said? He would have told them to go shove it

Another way of doing it would be to check the New Kadampa Truth website where pretty much every grievance has been addressed, and, again, to ask humbly as an individual, “Do I ever do this?” e.g. “do I ever tell people to read only Geshe-la’s books? Do I ever pressurize people into over-working? Do I ever behave a little fanatically?” Or whatever.

The Kadampa tradition itself clearly does not desire nor encourage these behaviors, hence the website and the Internal Rules (not to mention the holy Dharma); but individuals within the organization are naturally capable of making these kinds of mistakes due to delusions. This might therefore be a good litmus test enabling us to follow Atisha’s advice to identify and overcome any faults we might have. Especially those faults that are in any sense responsible for the NKT being thought by some people to be cult-like.

What do people think?

I agree with your sentiment, but I think the reality can be a little different. I have a 2 year old daughter, who vehemently hates having her teeth brushed but we do it anyway because we know it is good for her. I think, with all due respect, this website is a bit like the parent…

I didn’t particularly like school, or a few of my jobs in the past, but I realise that life can be like that. I don’t conclude that we should close down all the schools or shut down all previous places of employment and blame them for all my problems!

Also, just to clarify I sometimes see things done at my centre that I think are wrong. I have also had unhappy times while attending the centre or at festivals. But then I have also had similar experiences in all other aspects of my life. I have been around dharma centres and the NKT for over 12 years, and I have seen many things happen – good and bad. However I never lost sight of what I think is Geshe-la’s pure intention and what the NKT is trying to achieve. And in conclusion, I think the world would definitely be a lot darker without the NKT.

Respectfully

Mark

yours humbly C